Studying to Stay After Loss – Chasing Life with Dr. Sanjay Gupta


At first it felt like complete fog.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


You by no means actually know what grief will really feel like till it hits you. And even then, it is completely different for each one in every of us. Sundari Malcolm’s mother handed away in 2007, and within the months that adopted, her life fell aside.

You already know, proper after she died, I laid on the sofa and watched the Meals Community and drank quite a lot of wine and did not do an entire lot of a lot. I used to be actually type of frozen in my grief at that time. I keep in mind I might get up and I do not even know the best way to clarify this, nevertheless it’s like for a break up second, you do not keep in mind it is occurred. And there’s this like break up second of like, Oh, it is one other day. After which it is like a truck hits you.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


For seven years, Sundari had been taking good care of her mother, who had breast most cancers, and regardless that she knew her mom was dying, nothing braced her for what got here after.

I wasn’t ready for the grief. I wasn’t ready about what number of completely different locations grief would contact. Like one thing like a telephone, one thing like a tune or a scent, a vacation, seeing different household. Like I didn’t know the way a lot it was going to shift. I do not know that there’s a strategy to put together for that.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


After the preliminary fog and numbness, she felt quite a lot of anger after which disappointment. Ultimately, issues received so insufferable, Sundari determined to flee.

For me, it turned a holy shit. I received to get out of right here. This isn’t working for me. Like I felt actually stifled in my grief.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


She jumped on a aircraft and simply spent the following few months touring.

I had seen Eat Pray Love. I used to be a nineties child. So Julia Roberts is my like. I used to be, like an enormous fan.

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You need to go away for a yr? I used to have this urge for food for my life, and it is simply gone. I need to go someplace the place I can marvel at one thing.

I like that it was this concept that I might hit the highway and have these actually deep, significant experiences in solitude. There was such a freedom and being on the highway like nobody knew my story. Proper? Like I might meet individuals they did not know. My mom had simply died. So it wasn’t the very first thing they have been asking me. It was simply, The place are you from? I might say no matter I needed. I did not need to deliver it up, you recognize, and that felt good. And there is a distinction between attaching to the trauma of a narrative and permitting a narrative to maneuver you ahead. And I feel the attachment to it was launched once I was in a position to get out of my setting.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


She went to India, Italy after which Guatemala. And alongside the best way, Sundari regained her pleasure for the world round her. The journey impressed her to channel her ache into a brand new profession. She’s now a grief doula, a skilled, non-medical skilled whose job is to supply emotional and social help by means of bereavement. She’s additionally director of Bipoc Wellbeing for the Dinner Social gathering. That is a nonprofit that helps younger individuals who have suffered vital loss.

I work with individuals holistically, that means we discuss issues like, What are you consuming? What are you consuming? What are you watching? Who’re you surrounding your self with? However we additionally discuss how are you feeling on this second? We speak concerning the completely different triggers. We discuss the best way to construct your calendar yr so that you just perceive what it is going to be like round Christmas and Thanksgiving. We discuss conversations and the best way to have them with your loved ones, the best way to handle issues with your mates, the best way to transfer ahead in life. And I feel that turns into my predominant focus is how can we make you are feeling good despite? How can we inject pleasure? How can we handle your each day? In order that’s grief doula work.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


It has now been 15 years since her mother died. There are nonetheless moments when grief hits or seemingly out of nowhere, however she has discovered to take it because it comes.

You look again at issues like that, it was like, I can say the identify now, I can… And so I feel for everybody, I at all times liken it to the ocean prefer it’s waves and it is simply out and in. And identical to each wave is completely different than the one earlier than. Like, your grief wave goes to maintain altering and you must maintain assembly it and studying it and determining the best way to experience it.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Dying is common. Everyone knows that. However in the previous few years, greater than 6 million individuals all over the world have died from COVID. To not point out those that die throughout wars of gun violence and of pure causes. It looks like all of us are grieving in a roundabout way. However what does that imply? And the place can we go from right here? Nicely, on this episode, we’ll embrace grief in all its ugliness and messiness, however we’re additionally going to be taught the instruments to assist ourselves and others going by means of grief. We’re going to check out a brand new medical prognosis. It is referred to as extended grief dysfunction. And for individuals who stick round, we’re gonna have just a little shock for you on the finish. I am Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN’s chief medical correspondent. Seize your tissues. Take a deep breath. It is time to begin chasing life.

Wendy Lichtenthal


My story will not be an authentic one by any means. So I had an early loss. My dad died once I was about 13, happening 14. And so for me, the the ache of the grief, the struggling by means of it, and this drive to type of work out what am I going to do with my life coincided. And so it was about how can I assist individuals with this? This stinks.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


That is Wendy Lichtenthal. She’s a psychologist and he or she’s director of the Bereavement Clinic at Memorial Sloan Kettering Most cancers Middle in New York Metropolis. Like Sundari Malcolm, she has devoted her life to serving to others handle their grief.

Wendy Lichtenthal


Every part is motion. I say to individuals. It is all ahead motion. It is all a part of your course of and a part of your course of for all these causes that you just could not go to that place of grief three months in the past and now it is actually arising. That is sensible. I perceive why it is arising extra now. Let’s attend to it now.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Since we’re born or since we are able to type of perceive life as people, we do know that we are going to die sooner or later and that the individuals round us will die. I imply, that may be a a certainty, at the very least it’s for now. And I feel it type of raises this query, Wendy, from an evolutionary perspective, why can we grieve? What’s the goal of grief?

Wendy Lichtenthal


So I feel the body that we we take a look at this with is what the aim of relationships and attachments are and the evolutionary advantage of the best way we connect proper that it promotes survival for fogeys to guard their younger and for the younger to yearn for union with the security of their dad or mum. Proper. In order that attachment preserves life. You already know, pondering of an toddler, a toddler with their major caregiver and pondering of that second of separation, I consider when the grownup walks out of the room and you’ll think about, conjure up in your thoughts this youngster wailing. You possibly can see all of the feelings that quite a lot of us really feel after we’re grieving. Rage, like, do not you permit me. And utter terror. Please, please, please do not go away me. And that’s that separation misery response. The kid is craving for reunion. And so after we are grieving and as we grow old and are observing our personal grief and saying, what the heck am I experiencing right here? That’s as a result of it it is this stomach degree response to separation. We’re wired to protest it.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


If we simply speak concerning the right here and now for for a second, as a result of that is very visible, what you described, you recognize, with a baby after which type of attempting to think about that that lack of attachment, at the same time as somebody will get older, is it harmful to our our bodies and our brains? I imply, that that degree of loss, can we expertise one thing that is damaging in any strategy to our our bodies and brains?

Wendy Lichtenthal


It is a controversial query you are asking as a result of, you recognize, you and I each know there’s quite a lot of analysis about stress responses and what they do, the toll they tackle on the physique. However I do not suppose that is a useful body. Proper, as a result of then we begin worrying about being upset and begin serious about I am nonetheless grieving. Is there one thing improper? Am I hurting myself? And and I do not need to promote these concepts. So a distinct strategy to maybe take into consideration what is occurring is to grasp that stress response and it’s pure to really feel dysregulated physiologically that’s widespread and comprehensible and that we are able to take into consideration methods to handle these completely different experiences. I need to use the phrase signs right here, however you recognize, I need to additionally watch out to not pathologize what’s the expertise, the phenomenon of grieving.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


You already know, I feel many people who find themselves listening, I am certain you will have learn the Kubler-Ross type of 5 levels of grief. And, you recognize, it is attention-grabbing. I at all times I learn the e book and there have been instances once I felt like, wow, that basically appears to slot in this specific situation. And there is different instances when individuals didn’t appear to undergo the levels or they did not undergo the levels so as or they did not undergo the levels in any respect. What what’s the present analysis say about this? Is there’s there a manner of type of serious about these levels of grief and the development of it?

Wendy Lichtenthal


It’s, once more, a harmful line to go down as a result of it could possibly find yourself feeling prefer it’s prescriptive to say that on common, we see, you recognize, individuals have these completely different phases that they undergo. The way in which that we give it some thought is that folks can undergo intervals of time the place some emotional state is extra dominant than others. However that may come and go. These states can overlap and that there is no such thing as a common order or manner that folks grieve. And so we would like a highway map. We need to know that there is, you recognize, an order to this. Can somebody inform me the best way that is going to look? Providing that, although, when it does not like that, then leaves individuals within the shoulds. I needs to be going by means of this stage proper now. I needs to be on this area. And the place I feel we see among the largest struggles for individuals is after they’re should-ing themselves round their grief, after they’re self assessing and saying, I needs to be feeling higher by now, I ought to be capable to do that. I should not be laughing proper now. I should not be having fun with myself. This feels improper. So when we now have these in style concepts, just like the 5 levels of grief, we additionally need to debunk the parable that there’s this set path and that everyone grieves in some prescribed order. It is simply not the case.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


The concept of somebody dying in a manner that appears mindless, you recognize, a tragedy that simply appears mindless versus as I suppose, you recognize, a extra anticipated after an sickness, for instance, demise. How a lot of a distinction does that make within the within the longer run?

Wendy Lichtenthal


You already know, it is about the way it is sensible to the person. So I once more, I work in in a most cancers heart. I work with individuals who typically lose individuals after most cancers. However how they expertise that sickness and what their ideas have been, their expectations, how they thought this was going to go, performs a distinction. So it won’t be sudden to the medical staff, nevertheless it is likely to be utterly surprising to the surviving griever. So I feel that is simply an necessary factor to remember. That mentioned, the circumstances do play a task, how ready somebody feels for the loss, whether or not, you recognize, there have been traumatic components of of the loss expertise and somebody is having a traumatic stress response. Proper. They’re traumatized. They’re re-experiencing what occurred, whether or not as a result of they witnessed it or imagining it. So circumstances completely play a task. However these circumstances, we now have to grasp it is primarily based on the notion of the griever.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


You already know, I’ve to let you know a fast, fast story. You already know, once I was in faculty, a really shut pal of mine, this girl, she was killed in a automobile accident. It was very it was very unhappy, very tragic. A number of years later, she had this she had this love of birds. So her you recognize, we had all gotten collectively and primarily created this chook sanctuary in her reminiscence. And all of us went there to to mainly open up this sanctuary. And her mother and father have been there and her sisters. And it struck me on the time, Wendy, and that is, I do not know, a couple of years after she had she had died that her her mother actually had by no means gotten over this, so to talk. I am not even certain if that is the correct strategy to body it, however however she simply she was so so it was so painful for her. It was so uncooked for her. And it simply made me marvel, now that I am a dad or mum myself, does grief finish? Does it ever finish? Can we anticipate individuals to, quote unquote, recover from a loss like that?

Wendy Lichtenthal


Completely not. Proper. In order that’s so necessary to to to get that message out that there is no such thing as a expectation that grief ends as a result of then it is concerning the relationship. It is concerning the love, the attachment, the connection, and that we do not anticipate that to ever finish that particular person matter. Their affect in your life mattered. And sure, in fact, the affect of that loss is endlessly. A special manner to consider it’s to consider how yow will discover your manner and be taught to coexist along with your grief. How do I coexist with my grief? How do I create a life that feels price it sufficient and has sufficient of the components that matter to me and that permits me to remain related to this particular person? How do I proceed to maintain that relationship as mattering in my world? Coexist with the ache because it comes within the ways in which it comes and discover different components of the world that make make it price sticking round for. I imply, you recognize, that is about chasing life, proper? That is about determining how do you join with life once more. When an individual in your world who was life defining, who made life price residing is not bodily right here anymore. And that is that is the psychological process we’re up towards.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


After we expertise loss, our lives modified endlessly. So how can we work out the best way to dwell on this new actuality? And what occurs when you’ll be able to’t discover a manner out of your grief? Docs now have a reputation for that. It is referred to as Extended Grief Dysfunction.

It was identical to a eureka second. There was a lightweight on and it is like, wow, this can be a situations. I am not loopy. And there are individuals like me and folks undergo this.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


That is after the break.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


And now again to chasing life. Grief does not finish. We’re at all times going to overlook our particular person. Nonetheless, with time for most individuals, issues do get simpler. However the passage of time could not at all times be sufficient. Typically grief will be so overwhelming it stops some individuals from functioning. They get caught on this perpetual loop, experiencing the identical depth of craving and loss as they did after they first discovered of the demise. It is the worst type of Groundhog Day.

Wendy Lichtenthal


And contains profound disabling ranges of craving, intense craving, and it contains preoccupation, however intense and disabling ranges of preoccupation. After which the opposite signs that might be thought of embody continued numbness, continued avoidance of reminders, loneliness, id challenges, not feeling like you recognize who you’re. Not not the identical as I really feel just a little loss. I do not actually really feel like myself. However somebody is saying I do not know who I’m anymore.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


That is Wendy Lichtenthal once more. A part of her analysis entails serving to individuals who have debilitating grief that persists over lengthy intervals of time.

Wendy Lichtenthal


We’re speaking concerning the individuals who say, I do not know why I am right here. Life does not appear price it with out this particular person bodily right here.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Within the midst of the pandemic, alot of individuals could not know this, however however extended grief dysfunction was formally added as a as a brand new prognosis to what’s referred to as the the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Guide. That is type of a list of psychological issues for psychological well being professionals.
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Now, for lots of people, this was new, however not for you. I imply, that is your space of research {and professional} work. Was this the correct factor to to to discuss with this now as a dysfunction? Given all that we have talked about. And in that case, why? Why now? Why now make it official?

Wendy Lichtenthal


So I feel there are a couple of layers of points on this. Proper. One is concerning the wording. Proper. So dysfunction is a really loaded time period and it is loaded due to stigma of psychological well being. It is loaded as a result of it has implications for well being disparities. It is loaded in so many ways in which we need to be actually, actually cautious about. After which the extended a part of that identify can also be a bit sophisticated as a result of it has an implication of time. And we simply received completed speaking about the truth that grief does not finish. And within the DSM, it is 12 months. That might be the length the place we might look to see if a prognosis is likely to be warranted. That somebody saying are you saying if I am grieving after 12 months, I’ve a dysfunction? Proper. In order that’s problematic. However that is not the intention of the prognosis. The concept with the prognosis and what we have understood with ages of analysis and the timing of it’s simply because it will definitely simply occurred. It has been a long time of type of working towards discovering a spot for the subset of people who proceed to be debilitated by their grief. And I feel reasonably than pondering of it as extended grief, you recognize, perhaps we might consider it as protracted debilitation after shedding somebody.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


You’ve got mentioned that there’s a subset of individuals. How widespread or I imply, how huge do we predict that subset is?

Wendy Lichtenthal


So estimates utilizing these definitions are 7 to 10% of the inhabitants at massive total. The danger components embody how we connect generally people whose historical past of attachments have been much less safe. These people could also be at better danger people who had a extremely dependent relationship on the particular person they misplaced. It would suggest emotional dependance. It is likely to be sensible dependance. Individuals who have a historical past of different psychological well being challenges could also be at better danger. We all know that people who find themselves remoted might put somebody at better danger as effectively.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


So what does it really feel wish to have this type of grief overtake your life?

The extended grief is you are on the prepare, you arrive on the platform, you are able to go, and you then’re derailed. So that you’re simply caught. And also you simply want somebody to get you again on the tracks and make it easier to go in your manner once more. Since you simply all and also you simply can not see any which manner of getting by means of it.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


That is Fiona Jones, a girl who was identified with extended grief dysfunction. It began in 2008. Fiona was on a trip when her father unexpectedly died in his sleep.

He was 71. He was match and wholesome, as you recognize. There was no. So it was very, very surprising. The entire world simply stopped. And I simply keep in mind we have been going again to the lodge. And I can simply keep in mind wanting round, seeing everybody speaking, laughing. I used to be pondering, why is the world simply carrying on? You already know, my dad’s gone.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


11 years handed. And that degree of grief that Fiona felt when she first heard about her father’s demise didn’t subside.

I at all times cried every single day. There wasn’t a day that I did not cry and I cry for a very long time. And I received to a stage the place we would sit on the dinner desk and I simply actually did not need to eat, however everybody was watching me and which is horrible as a result of clearly they’re my children and so they’re nonetheless younger. And I used to type of say, Oh, I’ve simply had lunch or I’ve eaten later and I used to make excuses as a result of I simply did not need to eat. My physique and my thoughts have been simply utterly loopy. And that was my existence. I, I could not wait to go to mattress. I would be in mattress through the day. I simply could not wait to fall asleep. And once I’m sleeping, I am not being upset. I am not pondering. That was my heaven. I used to go to mattress within the early days simply pondering if I die, I actually, I actually do not care. However then I feel I do not need to die as a result of clearly I’ve received my youngsters, I should be right here for my youngsters. So it was a very powerful factor. Whereas earlier than my dad had died, I was frightened of dying, however then I simply thought, No, it’d simply be consolation. I am going to simply have peace.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


By way of the years, Fiona noticed two completely different therapists, however nothing appeared to assist. Then sooner or later in 2019, she stumbled throughout a web site for the Middle for Extended Grief at Columbia College.

And it was identical to a eureka second. There was a lightweight on and it is like, Wow, this can be a situations. I am not loopy. And there are individuals like me and folks undergo this.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


With assist from the middle. Fiona discovered a therapist skilled particularly to assist individuals with extended grief. They met as soon as every week for 16 weeks.

She’d give me duties to do through the week and he or she’d do recordings. I imply she used to document me rather a lot. And I used to have to talk within the current tense concerning the second I heard about how my dad had died. After which for that week, I used to need to take heed to it as soon as a day. You already know, initially it used to kill me as a result of all I might hear was myself crying the entire time. And it used to make me cry. And I used to dread listening to it. However in time, listening to it turned a bit simpler.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Fiona’s therapist requested her to maintain a diary of her each day temper. She would rank how she felt on a scale of 1 to 10, one being good and completely happy, ten being horrible. At first she rated her days an eight or 9, however as they talked extra, Fiona began to note that some moments have been okay, that some days weren’t as unhealthy as she thought they have been.

And so then my diary turned extra real looking. My numbers could be perhaps 4 or 5. After which I would discover that, you recognize, we take my canine for a stroll and for that break up second or the half an hour we have been strolling, really, my second was perhaps two or three. And in order that made me understand that once I mentioned I would been depressing for 11 years, I had had moments of good instances, like when my children had their graduations, after we went on vacation. That perhaps I hadn’t seen it because it really was. I simply assumed it was depressing, depressing, depressing. And clearly it wasn’t. I did have moments of excellent instances and completely happy instances.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Regularly, Fiona’s life began to really feel regular once more. She’s now thought of recovered from extended grief dysfunction.

It took some time. It did not occur in a single day. And in addition, I type of did not actually know who I used to be, actually. I would misplaced myself. And I nonetheless say I’m nonetheless on that journey. As the times go on, I’ve extra higher days than unhealthy days and my unhealthy days are very, only a few now.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Fiona has a message for individuals who is likely to be experiencing one thing related.

You already know, we now have such brief lives, we do not should be so depressing for therefore lengthy. And if we are able to keep away from it or we are able to get assist, then completely 100% go for it.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Grief is tough. It is painful and it is messy for all of us. And there is nothing we are able to do to alter that. However there are some instruments that may be useful as we be taught to maneuver ahead. So I requested Wendy Lichtenthal if she had any tricks to share. Tip primary. For many who are grieving. Do not be laborious on your self. Give your self permission to really feel all the sentiments. It is okay.

Wendy Lichtenthal


Simply saying like that is my course of. That is a part of how I’m dealing with it. Giving your self that that grace and allowance is necessary.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Tip quantity two. Be open about how you feel.

Wendy Lichtenthal


Discovering retailers, discovering methods to talk about your loss or to be with it is necessary for many individuals, whether or not it is by means of an individual or by means of journaling or by means of simply your individual dialog, to only be along with your grief. Giving your self that permission to grieve is de facto, actually key.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Tip quantity three. For many who need to help a griever, there are alternative ways you are able to do so. And in the event you’re undecided how, ask them.

Wendy Lichtenthal


Would you like me that can assist you clear up some issues proper now? Or would it not be higher for me to only type of sit right here and hear and give you help and present you I hear you proper now? Typically we do want somebody to resolve an issue, and generally we simply have to say it and have somebody say, I am so sorry. That stinks.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Tip quantity 4. Do not attempt to keep away from the subject as a result of it feels uncomfortable.

Wendy Lichtenthal


Give area to speak about the one that has died. Ask them about them. Discuss them. Or if you recognize them, your individual reminiscences of them, or the best way that you just consider them. Sharing that and bringing their presence once more. Presence is the antidote to a way of absence, proper? So we need to deliver of their presence.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


And tip quantity 5. Typically it is sufficient simply to be there as somebody is grieving.

Wendy Lichtenthal


Do not decrease what it’s to be there, be current and to be in an area the place you are somebody who’s tolerating their ache, the place they’ll freely categorical it as a result of they know you are not going wherever. You are not going to be like, Oh, this particular person’s annoying, so I’ll not name them once more. You are somebody who’s unconditionally there. So after we will be that that unconditional presence and make it okay for somebody to only be unhappy and simply maintain an area for that.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Look, I do know this episode has been fairly heavy, so I do need to go away you with just a little one thing uplifting. Typically it helps to take a second and simply breathe. Keep in mind the grief doula, Sundari Malcom, from earlier within the episode? Nicely, I requested her to steer you thru a brief meditation, the identical manner she would with their shoppers.

So let’s start. Your eyes will be closed if that is what’s snug for you. Or you’ll be able to merely discover a area in your room to stare upon. And soften your gaze. Let’s simply begin first with the physique. So discover your toes. And in the event you’re holding pressure in your toes and loosen up. See in the event you can loosen up your ankles. Think about that from the size of your ankle to your hip. It begins to melt in your chair in an effort to really feel your butt muscle mass loosen up. Can you are feeling your arms turn out to be just a little bit softer? Discover in the event you’re holding pressure within the arms and extra particularly in your shoulders and determine to only let go for the second. Are you able to loosen up the tongue within the mouth? And produce your consciousness to that place between the eyebrows and see if there’s pressure there. After which let’s simply take three breaths in by means of the nostril and out by means of the mouth. Releasing no matter we walked in right here with, deciding that on this second, on this breath, that is the one factor you must do. And after the third exhale, returning the breath to the nostril. And I would like you to put one hand over your stomach and one hand over your coronary heart. See in the event you can really feel your coronary heart beat beneath one hand. After which see in the event you can really feel the breath transfer beneath the opposite. Lots of instances after we’re within the midst of grief, a lot of our breath occurs solely in our chest. So are you able to deliver it just a little bit decrease in order that the stomach strikes on the inhale and the exhale. Soak up simply three extra breaths this fashion. After which bringing each arms over the stomach after the third exhale. As a result of generally after we observe respiration, after we’re in ache, after we observe respiration, after we are grieving, it may be actually laborious to maintain the thoughts targeted. In order you breathe in, say to your self, mentally, simply breathe. As you breathe out, simply breathe. That is your solely accountability on this second. There’s nothing else to do. Simply breathe. Soak up three extra breaths this fashion. After the third exhale, let your arms relaxation in your lap. Remembering which you could at all times come again to those phrases when it turns into too noisy within the thoughts, you’ll be able to at all times come again to this breath when the inhale is simply too excessive within the chest and you feel just a little untethered. You are able to do this. Namaste.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Thanks, Sundari. And we’ll be again subsequent Tuesday. Thanks for listening.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta


Chasing Life is a manufacturing of CNN audio. Megan Marcus is our govt producer. Our podcast is produced by Emily Liu, Andrea Kane, Xavier Lopez, Isoke Samuel, Grace Walker and Allison Park. Tommy Bazarian is our engineer. And a particular because of Ben Tinker, Amanda Seeley, Carolyn Sung and Nadia Kounang of CNN Well being, in addition to Rafeena Ahmad, Lindsey Abrams and Courtney Coupe from CNN Audio.

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